From ordinary to unforgettable:

Peter: I’m here today with Professor Michel Pham. Hello, professor. Hello, Peter. How are you? , I’m great. It’s great to see you again. Thank you for joining us today. You know, it, it occurs to me, one of the things I didn’t mention in the housekeeping is that you and I started our, business career, at least our, our MBA career at the same time you joined. At Columbia Business School as a professor in 1994, isn’t that right?

Michel: That is correct. I joined, um, in the summer of 1994, and I believe you took my class in the fall.

That’s right, of 1994. That, that was the intro marketing class, which was a beast at the time, and, um, was standardized. we all were using the same set of, uh, transparencies back then. We were using transparencies. That’s right. I remember that. My goodness. Across all the sections. And that was quite something to be teaching out out of transparencies that someone else had prepared.

But, um, you know, we went through it and, uh, I didn’t, make that better impression on you that you kept in touch with me over the years.

Peter: Uh, you, you certainly did. And, um, and it’s, you know, I, I have to say, you certainly did not come across as a, a new to teaching professor at that point.

It was a, it was really inspiring. And it looks like, um, it looks like you, you’re keeping as busy as ever. Uh, you’ve done, you know, since then you’ve done a lot of amazing things. And, uh, another thing I didn’t mention in the, the housekeeping is that not only have you produced a lot of work, but you were really well cited.

Did you know that? Um. Uh, if you go to Google Scholar, you’ve been cited tens of thousands of time, tens of thousands of time times. There we go. And, uh, largely, uh, over your work around affect, uh, decision making and, um, feelings based inference, which is, um, which is, which is fascinating. And this is the thing that I think we’re gonna get into today.

But before we do this, uh, tell us a little bit for, for people who don’t know you, um, say a little bit about your intellectual history and how it is you went from being a new professor, uh, at Columbia Business School in 1994 to where you are today.

Michel: Well 1994 was not really the true start of my career. Before coming to the US to do my, my doctoral studies, my, my PhD at the University of Florida, I was a research assistant in Belgium. And, uh, the professor at the time for whom I was, uh, working had asked me to, uh, to summarize materials on affect, feelings and emotions. Okay. And that’s how I was forced into it.

And I, that’s how I became interested. The subject and I carried that interest in my doctoral studies and, and then eventually when I became a professor at Columbia. And one thing that you might not know, Peter, and if you look at my CV, and I think you pointed out. Uh, correctly the, the different set of works that I’ve done, and some of it had been more impactful than others, and, and the ones for which, uh, the set of work that had the most impact was indeed related to this.

My interest on feelings and emotions and, uh, and this and how it interplay and interacts with decision making. But one thing that, uh, you, you, uh, that I think is an interesting anecdote. When I came to, um, to Columbia, there was a very senior professor, and I think that senior professor is a senior professor that you know as well.

Okay. And who sat me down. It was very, you know, this, this was a, a legend in the field and someone who basically, you know, was running the show on the faculty at Columbia Marketing. And, uh, the professor sat me down and, and told me, Michel, what do you want to be known for? And somehow the way he asked the question was that, um, well I’m not supposed to just that, to say that I want to be known for feelings and emotional affect because somehow interesting, he didn’t see that as, as a, um, as a, uh, as a topic worthy of a career and, um, interesting.

And, um. Interesting. And so for about two or three years, I started doing other work that was a bit more in these line of interest, I was a bit more mainstream marketing things. And then at some point, like a few years later, I said, screw it. Let me go back to what I’m interested in, which is finished in emotions.

And, um, and, and ended up, uh, you know, publishing, uh, quite a few papers. And, and, and in the end it was really clearly that body of work that became, you know what, uh. Drove most of my, my career in terms of impact. And, uh, the lesson that I draw, which I’ve shared with others, is that, uh, uh, you don’t have to necessarily listen to your senior, uh, colleagues for what, uh, you, you, you need to do as a researcher.

Eventually, the career and your research interests is something you have to take ownership. For, and, you know, your career success, you’re gonna have to earn it. And it may sometime work, may not done not work, but, um, at the very least, you’re gonna have the, the pride in knowing that whatever you achieve is something that, uh, it was driven by your own vision and your own interests.

Peter: That’s interesting. So I think, um, you’ve just actually, uh, right there given a nice answer to the question I usually save for the end, which is what advice would you give to, um, marketing professionals, um, to help them, uh, flourish in their career? So I think, we’ll, we, we will, we will come back to that at the end, but you definitely have.

Followed your intellectual interest. Uh, you know that, that’s very clear. And, uh, one of it looks like where this, this journey has taken you, uh, is to not your by any stretch of the imagination, your only, um, research work, but one of your most recent and I think. For the context of our readers, one of the most interesting, and that is a paper you did with Jennifer Sun.

Uh, what makes consumption experiences feel special? So I, I’d like to get into that, and I think this is particularly relevant for anyone listening who is trying to figure out, you know, how can we surprise and delight our consumers and, and do it in a way where we get an advantage over our competitors.

Especially in a, in a market where growth can be hard to find. So let, let’s, let’s start there. And my first question for you is, what led you and your co-author to tackle this question in the first place? Like how, how did you find yourself curious and interested, interested in this question of what makes experiences special?

Okay, let me, I

Michel: had to go back rewinding in time for a few years. Mm. And, um, I, I had another doctoral student. Um, and first of all, who, uh, who was, uh, my preceding doctoral student before Jennifer mm-hmm. And that doctoral student one day came to me and I, and said that to me that, you know, Michel, um, I’m interested in understanding what makes, um, experiences fun.

Okay? Mm. And what, uh, uh, the cons, uh, consum fun in the consumption context and, um, and, and. I had that question that he asked and that, um, really hit a light bulb to me because, um, one thing that I’m, I believe I’ve been able to do over the years is to recognize a good idea. And, um, and have a good sense of what would be a good word, worthwhile idea.

And I thought that was a brilliant idea because it’s a question that no one had asked and, uh, and which is necessarily a very good reason why you should do research. But that was a question that was genuinely important in the marketplace because, you know, everybody is interested in many industries revolve about creating fun experiences.

And, uh, but we just don’t know how to do it necessarily. And, um, and, um, and so we needed to unpack the, the, the, the, the, the what, what experience of fund is and how it arises in a, in a marketplace setting. And, and, and so that was it. A also a multi method project that, uh, this a great, uh, uh, former student of mine, whose name is Travis Ho, who’s a professor at Yeshiva University now, uh, worked on with me for so several years.

And, and, and so we had that, that that paper that came out several years ago that really, uh, unpacked a, a theory of what makes consumption and experiences in general fun and um. So Jennifer came, uh, a few years later and, um, and, and by then I, I was interested in understanding other aspects of experiences and, um, not just fun and, um, and, um, the, uh, we, we dabbled about different, uh, uh, areas and different research questions and there was something that, there was one area of research we’re trying to.

Uh, to investigate is, um, is really what makes con consumers more likely to extract pleasure from any type of consumption. Uh, and, uh, and, and we had found that she had found in her early work, uh, something that we call the consum story mindset. That a lot of it, that one of the driver of what’s, um, makes a consumer really enjoy pleasurable things.

Whether, you know, you, you, you serve them a very nice dinner or you take them to a spa, or you. You, you know, you try to provide something that is part of the experience economy. Um, very often we tend to think about what do we need to do as marketers, as, as businesses, to make those experiences better. But the, the, the, the key, uh, finding of that early work was, uh, the fact that it also depends on whether the consumer himself or herself.

It’s really ready to accept that experience. And this is, uh, something we call the Atory mindset. And, and, and she, she did some work and we found very interesting results. But the results, um, we hit the pandemic and, uh, uh, and during the pandemic it was almost impossible to do studies in the lab. And, and where we would bring people to a lab setting, because really that’s research would’ve needed more lab research to really test those hypothesis.

And, and that’s why we sort of left the project on the side. But as, as Jennifer was reading through the transcripts of, uh, of, of, of the survey she was running or the interview she had conducted, et cetera, she noticed that, you know, one thing that happens, people often describe. Not just the mindset before they get into the experience, but the result of that experience.

And they say, you know, that one was special and, and, uh, and essentially our project, uh, you know, pivoted in that direction. And, uh, and, and really sort of, um, um. Give me again, this, this, this, this light bulb moment and say, you know what, Jennifer, what just said that, uh, what make consumption experiences special would be a terrific research idea as well.

And, and, and we might be able to do that without necessarily bringing people into the lab. So that’s what, that’s how the research started.

Peter: Interesting. Yeah. Well, what, um, what I love about it, and we’re gonna get into it, is, you know, uh, at the, and I think most business people would appreciate this, is at the downstream of your research, you’ve really identified a practical roadmap for a kind of experience engineering.

And, um, you know, you did this. Uh, to my lights by being, identifying very clearly some pillars that matter and their specific facets. And you’ve done it in a way that I think provides a practical framework for, uh, business people and marketers to design. And it seems to me elevate consumer experiences. So that’s where I, I want to get to.

Uh, but let’s start at the top and, and find our way to this practical roadmap. Uh, one of the things you stated in your research right outta the gate is that, um, and I quote. Most things that are special. Turned out not to be rare. That was one of your, um, your first of many insights there. Could you, could you unpack that a little bit and what is it that was surprising about that and why should the business people, marketers in particular, uh, care about that?

Michel: Okay. I, I’ll tell you, uh, one thing that, uh, that, yeah, so. Um, a lot of, uh, marketers and a lot of consumers who say, you know, what, if I, I this motivation to have something that stands out that is a memorable, something that they can share, there’s something that they, uh, they can be proud of. Is, is a very pervasive MO motivation.

Mm-hmm. And is a pervasive, um, uh, selling proposition that, that people are gonna try to, to offer in the marketplace. And, um. So I’ll, I’ll tell you one thing that I, I that’s somehow connected to this is, uh, you, you, you are familiar with this, um, this recent, uh, event where, where there were, uh, it’s, uh, a, a group of, of, of women who somehow went to space with the, uh, blue Origin.

Sure. The origin, uh, um, initiative that Jeff Bezos had and, um. Um, and, and, and clearly, you know, I mean, they didn’t work out as well as, as, as they wanted in terms of way it was received by, by the broader marketplace. Sure. But you can sort of recognize the intent. The intent is to say, you know what, I’m, we are gonna do something that is remarkable, that is special, that is in fact extraordinary.

And, uh, and so. That sort of a experience shows very much the way people naturally think of what is something special. Okay. It has to be something that is very few people can attain, very few people. Maybe it’s probably very expensive and something that is very rare, uh, that, that, that, that would be something special and, um.

And, and, but in the business world, you can’t be a Jeff Bezos, everybody. No, no. Not everybody can be a Jeff Bezos and create those kind of experiences. You have to somehow be able to, to create a much broader range of experiences. And, um, and, and as a matter of fact, a lot of consumers experiencing that they can consider to be special and they don’t have to be extraordinary.

It don’t necessarily have to be that rare. It don’t have to be, uh, uh, uh, that that exclusive. And, uh, and so when we, and, and, and these are the ones that we wanted to find in our research. And so we let the consumers tell us, okay, tell us about an experience that you thought was special in the consumption context.

And, and then let’s unpack it. So tell us more about it. And we’re gonna try to understand what was going on. And, and what we found is that most consumers were telling things that were not particularly rare. Some of them were rare. I mean, there was some, um, you know. Consumers tell us about expeditions in the mountains, you know, uh, in the Himalayas, and, and that would be rare, but a lot of the things they would share with us with things such as, you know, you know, that one dinner that we had with a family member, uh, where we celebrated his, uh, six years birthday, was something that was special and because, special because of this and that and that.

And, and, and that’s, uh, and we found a lot of these, uh, these elements, um, that, um. Did not, did not seem to, to be particularly extraordinary in and of themself, but when they were arranged in that particular context, ended up creating an overall experience that that from the consumers, they encoded and they remembered as being special.

Peter: Yeah. So let me, um, that, that’s interesting. Let me, let me play that back and make sure I’m, I’m getting it right. It, it sounds like one of the things you noticed in the research is this, this difference between special and I think extraordinary was the language we were using. And so you’re, you’re pointing out that.

Uh, special experiences are a much broader category than extraordinary ones. You know, for example, climbing a mountain in the Himalayas. And the, uh, I’d like to dive into that a little bit more, but it sounds like you’re noticing that an experience can be special to an individual and not, not because it’s extraordinary or incredibly rare, but because of some other variables.

Exactly. Uh, and variables that, that marketers can work with. In fact, I think, um, uh, what, what you note, what you, the way you summarize this is you, you summarize this as three pillars mm-hmm. That, uh, people can think about, you know, the pillars that explain what makes an experience special. Could we, could we talk about those?

Sure, of

Michel: course. Um, so as you pointed out, we use a multi-meter approach, but what was really, um, striking to us is that. Across all the data we collected and, you know, we can talk some more about the type of data we collected, different methodologies, but we always kept seeing the same three fundamental drivers of experiences that were deemed to be special.

The one of them, uh, is the one that was perhaps the least surprising to us. There’s, there’s ought to be some elements of uniqueness. And the special experience is, um, is something that the consumer or the person feels like it’s not easy to do it. Again, this is something that, uh, is relatively uncommon and, and that was gonna be driving part of the specialness.

And there are different ways you can get at the uniqueness. A rarity would be one, but there may be other ones as well. There are other ones as well. The second pillar is that the, it doesn’t have to be, it’s not just. Unique, but it’s something that we kept seeing as well, is that consumers feel like, um, uh, something is, has to be also meaningful, right?

So it’s, uh, it’s, it’s not be it, it’s special, not just because, oh, it’s unusual. Uh, this was special because it’s unusual, but somehow I feel like it has some significance to. And, um, so a class a, a very common reason why, uh, events, experiences were special to, to, to, to our respondents in our informants is that, um, the experiences with other people and who you were experiencing it with was a big driver of the meaningfulness of those experiences.

Peter: Interesting.

Michel: That’s the second, that’s the second pillar. And the third one is one, the one that, um, uh. Was the, the, the least obvious in our data, but it was there. But you have to really scratch before below the surface to really uncover it. Um, the experience has to be the, it’s an element we call authenticity.

It has to feel real and um, and uh, and uh, and this is something that the consumers themselves don’t necessarily, uh, verbalize. Um, and, uh, don’t necessarily in tweet. If you read between the lines of everything they share with us, authenticity is also a major driver. And I’m gonna go back to the blue origin, the blue origin, uh, uh, story that I was, uh, commenting on earlier.

Part of the reason why a lot of people deride it, that experience, and they say, you know, what you did in space, whatever, however extraordinary, we don’t connect to it. We don’t think it was really special. In a sense, from our point of view is the lack of authenticity. Of that, you know, it felt fake, it felt stage, and, uh, and it didn’t feel real, uh, and for a number of dimensions.

And that’s, that’s the reason why, you know, despite spending probably hundreds of millions of dollars on the entire package of experience for, for the, the, the, the, the, the few individuals who went up, uh, on that, uh. On that trip, um, you know, the, the, the public, the public reception was, was disastrous. That the, there was massive failure of authenticity and there was also a many specific failure as well of meaningfulness, uh, because people didn’t think that it was particularly meaningful to do it because it was, you know, I mean these were a, a group of people who basically.

Ran, uh, random people that would put their women in. Uh, and, um, they try to make it meaningful by saying that it was a, um, a, you know, an experience, collective experience for empowering women, et cetera. But that’s just re resonated as fake and, and, and not very authentic. And, and that overall, you know, my, so that framework of ours can sort of explain all the reason why, however extraordinary it was supposed to be.

It was not meant to be very special by the general public.

Peter: Got it. So there, there was a lot in there. Let me, um, let me unpack our unpacking for a bit and um, you know, the first thing you noticed very quickly at the beginning is, um, and one of the things I loved about your research. Is, uh, it was very robust.

It wasn’t just anecdotal. So, you know, we, at the very end, we might get into the technical details, but you, your study drew on methods as diverse as consumer narratives and Yelp reviews and Instagram posts, uh, which I like because it’s data driven, you know, not just anecdotal. And what I heard you say there is what emerged from the research was a, a couple of, of.

Common patterns. And so, you know, you had uniqueness was the most common driver, the specialness you said. Then, uh, the second one, meaningfulness came through strongly, especially relational meaningfulness. Yeah. And then the third one, authenticity you noted in the data, it was often less verbalized and none.

The less crucial. So what we have is, uh, three insights emerging from the data that, uh, what drives specialness is uniqueness, meaningfulness, and authenticity. Let’s see if we, I’m, I’m very curious to see how we can convert those insights into, uh, some practical implications for, uh, business people now. So let’s, let’s start with, um, let’s go in reverse order.

Let’s start with authenticity. I mean, that’s, um. That’s, uh, I think that’s one of those things that people talk about a lot, but they’re not quite too sure what to do with. And, um, we often hear, and in fact I think you’ve warned that claiming, you know, in air quotes we’re special. You know, just claiming it, asserting it often doesn’t work.

So, uh, how can businesses make their experiences feel? More real without over-engineering it. Okay.

Michel: Um, thank, thank you, Peter. That’s a, so one of the things that we found in addition to those three pillars, uh, that we just, uh. Uh, went over is that we uncovered what we call facets, is that those pillars, uh, materialize themselves and get achieved and get attained in marketplace settings through a variety of mechanisms that we call facets.

So for example, there are six or seven facets of, uh, of uniqueness, four major facets of, of meaningfulness, and four major facets. Of authenticity. And so, so let’s talk about authenticity since, uh, this is the question that you just asked. Authenticity can be achieved in four major ways as well as, as we’ve seen it.

One of it is, um, uh, by, uh, the experience, if the experience itself. Enables the consumer to be close to a source of value. Okay? And, uh, um, something that they cherish a lot, um, that’s gonna contribute to an element of authenticity. So, for example, if a consumer gets to, uh, to be, um, to go to the loof and gets to, to see the Mona Lisa, uh, painting, just the, the closeness to being there and seeing it real.

So, you know, you know, you can see the picture. Of, um, of, uh, of the Mona Lisa everywhere on the internet. Uh, but being able to be there to take your own picture, and it’s gonna be essentially the same picture as what you can get down from the internet, but the, the ability that you would there be close to that source of, of value, that’s gonna be a driver of authenticity.

And, um, um, the, um, um, so, um, so the mechanism by which that form of authenticity. Uh, gets, uh, realized, um, is um, is essentially driven by a feeling of closeness and physical proximity or temporal connection to that, to that event. And so, um, so one thing that, uh, for example that you see is that, uh, um, when you go to Seattle, uh, which I assume you do regularly.

Um, and, um. You would go, uh, on Pine, it’s that Pine Street or whatever Uh, pine Square. Pine Square. Mm-hmm. And then, um, and there’s always a big line of people, uh, sure. Who are just lining up, lining up in front of the Starbucks store right there. Right? Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and, and, and somehow that’s special to them, you know, even though it’s exactly the same coffee as you can get.

Anywhere else. You don’t have to wait in, in long lines or elsewhere. It’s

Peter: different, Michel. It’s different, but you know, and stop spying on me. Was that you and your researchers? I knew somebody was a, with a clipboard there watching me in my daily obsession in Seattle. Funny. Yeah. But, but you see what’s, what’s going on?

Michel: Is that the feeling of, of being there? That where they all started. And so, so the question is, if you are, if you are Starbucks, how do you preserve that? Well, it’s important that you preserve the sense of continuity between where all started and where the, uh, where and the point of consumption. That you are trying to create.

And you know, it’s like signs, uh, that show, you know, okay, this is the original. Uh, and then maybe a timeline that you can put inside, uh, inside, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the coffee shop. You know, these, these are the kind of practical ways in which you provide and reinforce a sense of a connection to the roots of a, of an experience.

So that’s just a. Practical example on how you, you attain original authenticity. Um, there’s a, there’s another form of authenticity that we uncover and that was a, a very common, quite different, well, let me talk about the second one that is maybe more connected. Um, there’s a, there are experiences that feel real even though people know it’s fake.

And, um, so you go to Las Vegas and you go to the tion. And, um, and, uh, and, and I’m really surprised by how much are people are willing to spend to go on one of the gondolas, uh, that, uh, run in the shopping mall right below the Venetian. And, uh, I believe the, the ride I last checked that was, I was in Las Vegas not so long ago, last check, I think it was, uh, $139.

And, and, and, and people, you know, do things especially enough that, you know, they need to spend $139 with someone. For essentially a little boat ride, uh, with someone singing behind and, um. And, and, and it clearly people know it’s not Venice. Right. You know, but it feel real and it feel authentic in a sense.

It feel like the real thing. And that’s enough. And, and this, this steps into something called what we call representational authenticity. Um, certain there’s value in authenticity, not so much in, um, in knowing this is a real thing. But, uh, in being able to see, that’s realistic. It looks like the real thing.

It could be the real thing. And that’s somehow also a driver, uh, a specialness, uh, that you can attain by creating this other form of authenticity.

Peter: Michel, I have to stop you there for a second and ask a question because, um, I have lined up for Starbucks in Seattle, and I, I haven’t, full disclosure, I haven’t gone in that gondola ride.

Okay. But when I, when in the, the rare occasion where I do, uh, go to. Las Vegas, I do find myself at the Venetian. So what I’m wondering here is if, if I just rewind what you’ve said so far, you’ve, you’ve made an interesting point. You know, we started by saying, okay, look, there’s, um, there are three pillars mm-hmm.

For specialness and beneath the pillars. You’re doing a, a deeper dive. Into what you called facets. And so far we’ve heard for authenticity, there’s a number of facet facets, and you’ve given us two. You’ve said original authenticity is one facet. Mm-hmm. And represent representational authenticity is the other.

And I, I think, uh, people listening would notice there’s a little bit of a, an interesting disjunction there. You said the original authenticity is. Is just that, that an experience provides a connection to the real thing. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, for example, you, you referred to seeing the real painting in person at a place or lining up for, you know, the, at the first Starbucks ever.

And yet then you also said there’s this idea of representational authenticity, which almost seems like the exact opposite. Mm-hmm. It’s you, you’re suggesting that the people are willing to pay for an experience that feels special, uh, even though it, that, that feels somehow emblematic. Emblematic. Excuse me.

Yeah, that’s a very typical. Yeah. Of the real thing without actually being Yeah. The real thing. So help me understand that as a, as a marketer, how would I know which direction to go in a moment? Is there, does it have something to do with the personality or the demographics of the person in question?

Because I, I’ve done both. I’ve lined up Yeah, sure. At Starbucks and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve stood before. Uh, the Mona Lisa and walk the halls of, um, Versailles and yet, um, just for the fun of it. Yeah, I’ve been to the Venetian, so help me, help me understand what’s happening here.

Michel: Okay. That’s a very excellent question and there’s indeed a tension between.

Uh, it looks like an opposite, but it’s not. These are complimentary aspects of, of, of subjective experiences. Um, we are not always able to go to Sima, Aliza, and most of our experiences were not, with most of our lives, were not able, we’re not gonna be able to always be connected to an original source of, um, of, of, of value.

And, um. Now, um, the, the distinction between, um, original authenticity and what we call represent representational authenticity is a pretty well known distinction that’s, uh, uh, also you find in art and, um, the, um, you see when, when people see, um, you know, appreciate, let’s say paintings. They, uh, they, they, they don’t just, uh, love, let’s to go back to the painting example, like Mona Lisa.

They just don’t necessarily appreciate the value of the real Mona Lisa or real Leonardo da Vinci paintings, but they also can appreciate, uh, the value of, of work that may, that is very representative. Of, of the work that that DaVinci would’ve done or Rembrandt would’ve done. And, uh, and, and, and so the, uh.

Uh, uh, there’s a, a, a, the we are our subjective experience, uh, and, and aesthetic experience. Uh, mechanisms are set up, lead us also to appreciate things that are admirable, not just so much because, uh, they, they are the real thing, but because they are very good examples and you use the term iconic, that that is in fact a term that’s often used in that literature, in the research song.

In that, uh, that, that body of literature, uh, uh, people also call that, um, um, iconic authenticity. It’s, it’s just so representative of what, uh, of what I think, um, a Rembrandt should look like or DaVinci should look like. That I, I, I, I’m able to extract some value of that and I can imagine myself. Being there.

In fact, that’s what it is. It transports the person into that world and to the extent it transport the person, that world, it feels authentic because it was so well done. Um, and, uh, in the, you know, I, I wanna, I remember the, uh, one interview in which a person was, um, witnessing in luau. She was in, in, in Hawaii.

And, um, and, and, and she, she’s, she was witnessing a Lua dance for, and which is clearly something that is done for tourists and various commercial, etc. But just for that one moment, it felt so real to her because she said, you know what? This is so typical of what I imagine, um. Times in Hawaii would’ve been in the old days.

And, and the feeling transported, she said, I was all, could, most, could see myself. There is really, uh, was what was driving the, uh, the, the sense of authenticity. Yeah.

Peter: That’s interesting. So, you know, I’m gonna encourage our listeners to really dive into your, your research and to, to unpack each of the facets beneath uniqueness, meaningfulness, and authenticity.

Because we, you know, we, we couldn’t possibly get to all of them today, but the, the general sense I’m getting from all of them is, uh, there’s an opportunity. Depending on the business you’re in and who your customers are to engineer specialness by noticing beneath the pillars of uniqueness, meaningfulness, and authenticity, you know, which of the features you could, facets, you could almost use them like dials that you could turn up or down or innovate, uh, towards.

So without, um, you know, recognizing that we haven’t been able to go through all of the facets, uh, what. Would you say your research suggests or counsels as a practical roadmap for our listeners who want to begin to engineer special experiences using the pillars and the facets?

Michel: Um, so one, one of the things that we have in the, when, when people hopefully will get an access to, to the, the full article, that research that provides a lot of details.

And we have a, at the back of that article, a, a, a table, uh, a set, a set of tables in which we, we provide examples of how. Uh, the various facets that are linked to uniqueness, authenticity, and, and, and meaningfulness could be, uh, you know, could be, uh, operationalized. Um, and I, I, I invite the reader to read those things.

Um, but, uh, I think knowing the each facet opens the door, um, to, to, you know, brainstorming in terms of how the way you might operationalize it within, within your, your own setting. So, for example, one of the, um. Facet we have for, uh, uniqueness, you know, you know, so uniqueness. A lot of people think that has to be rare, but, uh, often what we found in our data.

And studies, is that an element of personalization, which is something that, that everybody in industry, and that’s been, you know, uh, recognized, uh, personalization is one way you achieve, uh, uniqueness. And, and there’s clearly something where the industry, and I know that we, at some point we’re gonna talk about AI and te new technology, et cetera.

Mm-hmm. This is really an area where. Where new technology can help a lot is that, uh, you can make, uh, experiences more special to the extent that you can somehow dial up the personalization element. And in the digital world, that can be done much more so than, uh, than than before. Um, one another example of, uh, of personalization.

That is not necessarily a digital one, uh, but um, that we mentioned in, in our paper as an example is, um, is enabling the consumer to co-create. The experience, you know, and I, and, and you are in the consulting space, uh, Peter, and a lot of, uh, the great, um, consulting experiences, uh, and, and, and, and, and and training experience you have is literally when, when the participants in, in your programs, so, or your interventions get to do some of the work themself and get to somehow move, uh, the, uh, the, the direction of the conversation in their own way.

And that somehow will create a very. Special learning experience because in part, they have somehow, uh, contributed to the personalization element by co-creating the experience. So, so one, one of the, the warnings of, of the, uh. The, the cost for attention that we made to, to, to marketers when they try to think of engineering, when we think of engineering, a lot of the time we tend to think about, alright, I get to make all the decisions and I had to somehow finalize the overall product or experience myself internally.

Whereas, uh, uh, part of, uh, making it special is to let, um, the consumer do some of the work, right? And, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and co-create part of the experience. Um, so that’s, that’s will be sort of a, um, an example of how one can move from the overall pillar of uniqueness into a particular facet we call personalization.

And then think about different ways that personalization element can be, um, uh, can be implemented.

Peter: That’s interesting. So it, it, it sounds like you’re saying something to the effect of authorship equals specialness, or at least authorship influences it, which is kind of interesting. The, um, you know, the other thing I re I remember you wrote is that in your experience.

In your experiments, you found that really small tweaks like uh, like an open kitchen Yeah. Or a surprise, thank you gift, uh, had, um, outsized impacts. So small tweak often Got you a big effects. Why do these micro interventions seem to matter so much?

Michel: I, I think that, uh, so there is a, yeah. So to go to provide a bit more context to, to the listeners about the, the, the, the one of the results that you mentioned, um, uh, one of the studies that we had was essentially, um, it’s, it’s a scenario based study where people ask to imagine a dinner that they’re having at the restaurant and they’re enjoying a very nice.

Dish of pasta and the only difference to be doing an experiment, the other experiment is that where, where is this consumer imagining that dinner sitting in a restaurant? And are they clo, you know, are they in a regular dining room or are they sitting in the area? That is where an open kitchen is visible, and what the open kitchen does is again, enabling.

The consumer to have to visualize the connection to the source of the pleasure they’re gonna have, which is the dish that they order being prepared. And that’s an example of what we called earlier, we talked about earlier that we call original authenticity. If it’s more authentic, if I have seen the person.

Uh, prepare it, the chef prepare it. And, uh, the more, uh, insight I have into the process of, uh, of, of how my product is being made, the more I feel like a real product is something that, uh, is valuable and therefore special. The, um, to, to back to your question, why do, uh, those things make a difference? It’s because not every.

Marketer on every business thinks about all these elements and, uh, uh, along the lines that we uncover in our research. And therefore, you know, they, they might have some intuition that maybe an application is good for the consumer in general, without necessarily tracing, uh, how it might make a difference.

Um, they might not necessarily know that this is through authenticity. They might think it’s, you know. It’s unique, but in fact it’s authenticity that’s really driving it. And so some of it is that, um, uh, there, ev a lot of players in the industries, uh, across industries has probably some nuggets of intuition about, you know, different interventions that might work, but they, but not fully realizing why they work.

And, and, and what our research does is really connecting the dots in terms of saying, all right. If you think it works, you need to find out why it works. I, and if it doesn’t work, you need to find out why it doesn’t work. And, and, and having, uh, our, our research, the way I see it is a way to, to see why it works and therefore also understanding why it would not necessarily work.

Um, as a matter of fact, uh, one thing we, we do also see in some of our result is that not every industry. Um, and, um, is equally amenable to the same engineering practices, right? And so, um, one, one of the reasons we have, for example, is that, um, authenticity matters more for certain industry in other industries, you know?

So if you are a souvenir shop, authenticity matters a lot. Uh, if, uh, if you are a, um, a, uh, steakhouse. Interestingly, authenticity doesn’t matter at all. That it’s more the uniqueness of of, of how the stake is served and, uh, and, uh, and rather than the authenticity that, that you presumably try to create. And so recognizing when one would apply to your industry and which facet might work and enable you to get there is really the, the, uh, the path for leveraging our findings into making something that, uh, would make a difference in your business.

Peter: You know, that’s, um, that’s a perfect segue. I know, um, we’re coming close to the end of our interview and, um, most of our listeners are always expect me to talk about the 800 pound algorithm in the room, artificial intelligence. So it, it, you know, what I just heard there and hopefully what all of our, our listeners are taking away from this.

Is there is a pathway to engineering, specialness and, um, that specialness can come from a uniqueness, uniqueness, meaningfulness, and authenticity and their, their facets beneath each of these. Mm-hmm. What I’m curious about now is how do you imagine technology like AI will change the way the businesses either create those pillars or compromise?

Those pillars. And since the last thing you talked about was authenticity, uh, maybe we can, because we can’t get into AI and, um, all of the other variables, let’s talk about AI and, and authenticity and, um, you know, it seems clear that it’s come through as one of your most important and most interesting three pillars, yet we all know that artificial intelligence can often blur the line between real and fake.

Yeah. So, uh, have you given any thought to this and, you know, based on, or you know, if not just off the top of your head, how do you, how should leaders think of AI as both an opportunity and a, a potential threat for authenticity?

Michel: Okay. Like, so it’s a, it’s a very, very, uh. It, it’s, it’s a big question. I’m gonna, let me, lemme try to give it a shot.

And, and this is really the first time that I, that I, and you

Peter: can’t, you can’t ask Chad GPT for the answer. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Michel: I I will not. I will not. And, um, but the, uh, but, so let me, uh, let me say a couple of things. First of all, um. When you, I just want to correct one point, which is an important point, uh, to correct you.

You said earlier that our research shows a path. For, uh, creating special experiences, I, I would just amend that comment and say that it does not show one path. It shows numerous paths for creating special experiences because even though you are gonna have to use a combination of uniqueness.

Authenticity and meaningfulness based on our research. There’s different, so many different ways by which, uh, you can get there, uh, because by combining different facets that in fact there are many, many different paths that, uh, that uh, you can use, uh, to, to create those experiences in, uh, as a, um. Quick answer, and this is not the, the, the profound answer, but the quick answer already, one thing that I would encourage your, your listener to do is, is simply plug in that those, uh, these, uh, these tables that I have, uh, in the paper, uh, into charge GPT.

And J dbd is gonna give you quite a few ideas on how you might be able to operationalize these different paths, because that’s a very good, um, tool of course for searching, searching the space of possibilities, uh, once you have a proper framework and, uh, which is what our research does. Um, back to your question on, on the authenticity.

Um. There is one element that, uh, that uh, that we, when we talk about, that we found in our research that I think is, um, is one in which, uh, okay. So let’s, let’s, there are four facets of authenticity that we find in our, one is original authenticity. And, um, and as you point out, Peter, uh, original authenticity.

From a, uh, you know, a, a, a, a, uh, 10,000 feet point of view, it would seem like this is something that would be compromised by ai because now there’s so much can be somehow simulated. Mm. Um, but there are, which would take us into the realm

Peter: of representational authenticity.

Michel: Yeah, exactly. And then, uh, uh, and, and then so.

We, we, we, the early read of what’s going on right now in, uh, in what I, whatever, I’m not an expert on ai, but the, the early read of what we have at this stage is that, um, is representational authenticity is a driver of what people are seeing as special in, in, in, in ai. Uh, experiences AI generat. So, so the, the, the gene AI and, and, and those, uh, uh, a, a agent ai and, and, and, uh, it, the feeling that, you know, I could be talking to a real person, uh, is right now at a stage where we’re, we are now, where, or representational senses seem to be carry carrying the, uh, the, the, the.

I would say the load and uh, um, but, um, there’s one aspect of authenticity. Two more that, uh, we found. Um, one is we call human authenticity. And, um, uh, uh, uh, quite a few of the experiences felt real to people and therefore special because of how they were treated. By a human. It was always human. And, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and human authenticity is really a, a feeling that the other person or the other party, the service provider, let’s say the, or the restaurant owner, really cares about me as a, as as a consumer.

And, um, and this is the one thing that that. Uh, moving forward, uh, is left to be seen on whether you, uh, the, the, that’s gonna be, um, well recreated or modeled or simulated, uh, in a, in a AI world. The final one that we have is natural authenticity. That there’s somehow a connection to nature is, uh, is also, uh.

Uh, very often a way to, to, to by which people feel like their experiences is a real experience that is worth experiencing and worth living, and therefore potentially special. And, and, and this is where the AI world is gonna be the most disconnected. Uh, it is this, uh, uh, this, uh, is on the, the feeling of being a.

Constantly in front of the machine as opposed to being, you know, in a, um, in a, um, in a natural world, in a, in a natural, but not being na in nature rather than a natural world. Yes.

Peter: That’s interesting. That was, that was, um, a quite a, um, a cognitive, a rich cognitive fruit smoothie right at the end there. Um, uh, that you just gave us all to sip.

But if I’m, I’m hearing you right. You’re, you, you’re noticing. That. Um, again, as a reminder, we’ve got these three pillars for specialness, uniqueness, meaningfulness, and authenticity. And under authenticity, you, you, you reminding us that there are actually four facets. We’d only talked about two. The first two are original and representational.

And then to this, you added human authenticity and natural authenticity where it sounded like human authenticity. Um, is really related to the, the actions of others and how they’re perceived. Uh, you know, are they sincere, caring, not just transactional, and then natural, authentic authenticity. You know, you, you refer to this, this feeling of em emotion of immersion or connection with nature, and it sounds like the, the, the advice you’re giving or the cautionary tale is.

You know, AI can be great for a number of different things, like helping you, um, think through different ways to engineer specialness and, and even helping you get deeper insights into what your consumers care about. Um, uh, because of its, uh, you know, the, the obvious qualities that AI has, but at the same time, there’s a danger that if you use ai.

Um, if you’re not really thinking through what you’re doing, you could actually. Diminish human authenticity and natural authenticity in a way that could diminish specialness of your, uh, your offering. Is that, um, is that a decent playback of what I heard there, or did I put in your mouth belong there?

Michel: That is a perf, a perfect, uh, replay and summary of what I was trying to say. But you, you articulated much better than I I did. Very good. Terrific. Well, I had a good professor,

Peter: professor when I was in marketing. Well, uh, you know, I could talk about this, uh, at, at length, but we’ve come to the end of our time.

I will, um, I will put a, a link to your research paper in the show notes, uh, on what consumption experiences, uh, feel special. I encourage all of our readers to, uh, to dive into this and, uh, also, uh, to reach out to Professor Pham via, uh, LinkedIn. Professor, thank you very much, uh, for your time, and I hope thanks so much here for having me on the show.

Yes, yes. Let’s not wait, uh, as long for our next conversation as we did, uh, for this one. Okay. Looking forward to. All right. Take care, Peter. Bye-bye. Take it easy.