Navigating the Future:

Professor Robledo is the Director of the Future Mobility Design Lab at UC Digital Futures. He’s a Mobility Systems Design Professor at the University of Cincinnati. And he’s a proven innovator with a record of successful public and private collaborations. including with Boeing, NASA, the U. S. Department of Transportation, Hyundai, MIT, and others.

During our conversation, we talk about the future of mobility and of smart cities, the shift from car ownership to mobility as a service, subscription based models, the implications of autonomous vehicle technology on a number of different industries, the potential of Level 5 automation and mobility as a service.

At scale by the year 2040, the challenges of our current paradigm, uh, energy paradigm shift and other topics. I enjoyed this conversation into the undiscovered country of the future of mobility, and I hope you will too. So with that, I bring you Professor LoDo. Hello and welcome to the Undiscovered Country, A BTS podcast about the future of work.

This is Peter Mulford. Okay, some quick housekeeping. At the time I’m recording this, it is officially the last day of the World Economic Forum annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland. If you’ve never been to one of these events, this is a annual meeting of leaders in government, business, and civil society.

Basically people who are either powerful, thoughtful, or influential. And sometimes if you’re lucky, all of these things. And over the course of several days, they all get together and have a series of public and facilitated conversations. about major issues of the day and their ideas on how to tackle them.

So, to get a sense of what this looks like on any given day. As happened on Thursday, you might sit through a round table conversation where you have the CEO of Anthropic, the CEO of Salesforce, of Pfizer, of Uber, the secretary general of NATO, and the chief investment officer of Alphabet, all in a conversation facilitated by the CEO of the Atlantic, uh, talking about technology breakthroughs and their potential to revolutionize.

industries and the attendant risks of misinformation, job displacement, and privacy erosion. That gives you a taste of what’s going on. From the viewpoint of future backed thinking, there was a lot of ground covered this week. Among the highlights You had discussions and debates around AI, technology generally, tariffs, climate change, Ukraine and Gaza, and the global economy generally, lots of quotable quotes.

For example, you had Alain Berset, a former Swiss president who now leads the Council of Europe, basically saying that we are seeing a backsliding of democracy everywhere in the world. Um, you had President Donald Trump. Saying, if you don’t make your product in America, uh, then you will pay a tariff. And you had the Meta Platform’s AI scientist, Jan LeCun, explaining why Meta decided to replace its fact checking program with crowdsourced community notes.

Anyway, uh, you should be able to watch most of these conversations on YouTube eventually, and I recommend you do. There’s a lot of ground covered this time, and lots of interesting signals coming from the future. Back. About what the future might hold for all of this. So moving to today’s podcast today, I’m speaking with professor Alejandro Lozano Robledo.

Professor Robledo is the director of the future mobility design lab at UC digital futures. He’s a mobility systems design professor at the University of Cincinnati, and a proven innovator with a record of successful public and private collaborations, including with Boeing, NASA, the U. S. Department of Transportation, Hyundai, MIT, and others.

During our conversation, we discussed the future of smart cities and mobility, the shift from car ownership to mobility as a service. The implications of autonomous vehicle technology on a number of different industries. The potential of level 5 automation and mobility at scale by the year 2040. The challenges of an energy paradigm shift in the years ahead.

And other topics. I enjoyed this journey into the undiscovered country of the future of mobility with the professor. And I hope you do too. With that, I bring you Professor Alejandro Lozano Robledo. I’m here with Professor Alejandro Lozano Robledo. Professor, lovely to see you again. Peter, it’s always a pleasure to chat with you and thanks for the invitation.

So I will have done a proper introduction to you in the housekeeping, but, um, to build on that a little bit, uh, why don’t we start, you’re the Director of the Future Mobility Design Lab at UC Digital Futures and also A mobility systems design professor. Uh, that’s a, that’s a really unusual, unusual background.

Um, why don’t we start by sharing, you know, what is your intellectual history? You know, how is it you came to be in this role that you’re currently in?

Alejandro: Absolutely, Peter. It is, it is a very unusual background. I’ve been very fortunate to have had a foot. In industry, a foot in academia, a foot in in government.

So it all started with transportation design. So I studied traditional automotive design at the heart of it all in Detroit, Michigan. And slowly, I had some experiences both in the automotive industry as a as an industrial designer and also in alternative transportation companies, such as Crown Equipment.

But then I came to Cincinnati to do my graduate degree. in systems in design research. So essentially what I did was I specialized in automobiles. Then I zoomed out and specialized in cities, connectivity technology. I’ve been teaching at the university for over seven years, and I helped set up the current mobility systems program.

As the name says, we’re really thinking about transportation and how it connects to cities. But the exciting part of it all came three years ago, three and a half years ago, where it’s. The university, which is a very big 152, 000 students, they opened a very large initiative focused on the future, right? So they set up this building where they invited me to set up a brand new research lab, and I set it up, you know, in partnership with government entities such as the U.

S. D. O. T. With academic entities, such as MIT with industry, such as Boeing and Hyundai. And then I also work with nonprofits and really what my lab focuses in is the future of cities and how can we truly improve the quality of life of people? We use AR VR technologies, and it’s really about how it all connects.

So mobility is more than. Transportation that my philosophy behind it is, let’s put people first and understand how these radically changing paradigms are affecting, you know, the business model and why we should all care about this.

Peter: Well, you know, as I as I listen to you, I’m reminded that the first time we met you were actually in the multiverse.

I remember meeting you at your the mobility design lab, and I’m pretty sure you were surrounded by students and you yourself had a headset on. And, uh, I, you know, I said, where where’s the professor? And they said, well, he’s in the multiverse right now, which was a fun, fun introduction to you and your work.

So let’s, uh, let’s dive right in. See, already, you’ve said a couple interesting things. You made the point that mobility is more. Then just thinking about things that move like cars, you start talking about entire ecosystems in the future of cities themselves. So maybe that’s a, that’s a good place to launch into the conversation from where you’re, you’re sitting right now.

What would you say is the, the most interesting thing or most important thing happening when it comes to the future of mobility and, you know, whether it’s smart cities or, um, building a technology ecosystems around mobility, what’s the thing that really has captured your attention?

Alejandro: You know, by far by far the biggest thing that is happening is the paradigm itself is changing.

So think about the expectations of individuals of communities and of populations are radically changing. And this is not me saying it. This is business and world leaders, for example, a business executive at Ford. Couple years ago said that we’re experiencing the largest revolution that we have. So potentially experiencing a moment more, more disruptive than when we went from carriages to cars.

And the whole reason why is technology. So AI smart cities, all of these very large trends are changing our expectations. So think about the way we Think of property anymore. We don’t own things in the same way anymore. What does that mean for mobility kind of a seed idea? I want to plant early in this conversation is this idea of, you know, if you will not buy a car in the future, then what are these companies selling you in the future?

And that’s an idea to say, you know, the whole paradigm itself is changing the zeitgeist. You know, the expectations at the moment are really changing. So everyone must must adapt and then yeah. A very big thing is the future. You know, the next 20 years are projected to be some of the most disruptive that we’ve ever experienced in that short period of time.

So that that’s what excites me the most, helping Envision and working with companies and with governments to prepare for this revolution.

Peter: Let me, let me double click on that a little bit more. You said the, the paradigm is shifting, so I, I’m, I’m assuming you’re talking specifically about the, the mobility paradigm.

Can you give us a sense of, uh, some specific shifts? So from what to what? Like one of the things you, you shined a light at quickly is this idea of maybe we’re shifting from owning. Your car say to renting your car or you know, um, mobility as a service. I don’t want to put words in your mouth if they don’t belong there, but give us an idea of what is what are some of the biggest from two shifts you’re seeing so we can get a clearer picture of what you mean.

Alejandro: Absolutely, Peter. So the two biggest ones that I can speak of our number one what you just said the concept of ownership. So think of companies like Ford, like Toyota, like Hyundai, not selling you a car in the future because ownership is changing. Younger people are not even driving anymore. They’re not getting driver’s license anymore.

So rather than selling you a mobility product, what they do is they partner with cities and with governments to sell The city, for example, the city of New York mobility solutions, and then that brings me to part of that paradigm. You know, the shared economy. We don’t buy things anymore. We subscribe to them.

We know Netflix and Spotify are examples of that. What if mobility becomes a subscription service and that those are some of the models that are changing the concept of ownership. So as a user in 2030 2040 You may pay a subscription to have access to all mobility solutions in your city, which brings me to the second paradigm, autonomy.

So we know many, many companies are leading the way in self driving cars. Well, this is a revolution that is happening and the technology is. It’s still in its infancy, but it’s evolving very quickly. What that really means for companies and why should we care is because you’re radically changing the paradigm of if you don’t have to drive anymore, you can fundamentally change the space and the activities that happens in a car.

Those are business opportunities for leaders and that’s time that you regain. So that’s a significant shift in how we perceive, you know, the daily commute. You can truly, truly. Maximize, you know, your time. So ownership and autonomy are two of the biggest ones.

Peter: That’s interesting. Let’s, um, let’s linger, let’s dive deep on both of those.

I think we will start with this idea of mobility as a subscription. Um, it almost sounds like, and again, if I put words in your mouth that don’t belong there, professor, just spit them out and say that that’s not what I, not what I said, but it sounds like you’re suggesting that mobility might.

You know, with Apple being a perfect example of this, right, you know, where, if you think about it, Apple started out as the hardware business. And before you knew it, a disproportionate amount of their revenues now come from services, whether it’s, you know, the app store, Apple care, iCloud, Apple subscriptions, et cetera.

Are you saying that for, you know, for our audience, which is mainly business people, you Uh, that there will be a similar opportunity for them sitting downstream of this to, you know, in the same way Apple was able to shift from hardware to subscriptions, that there’s going to be opportunities that they ought to be thinking about in a world where mobility is a subscription, or will most of that money simply go to the Ubers or the automobile manufacturers?

Alejandro: So, yes, the answer is yes. You know, the, the, the ownership paradigm is changing so quickly that these companies have to adapt. Uber, as an example, they’ve been some of the leaders in this new business model, right? So what, what we’re really talking about is the business model is changing. People don’t own, Cars, or if they do, how can they maximize the profits and the revenue?

So, for example, if you don’t buy a car anymore in the future, but rather you subscribe to an ecosystem that your city, your community, or companies provide, or a conglomerate of companies provide, that’s an entirely new paradigm. And you can not only, so think of the implications systemically, you may not only be subscribing to mobility alone, maybe that’s part of a larger ecosystem of other types Companies and other types of offerings.

Think of in China, WeChat, it’s a, it’s a, it’s an application that connects banking, connects mobility, connects everything. So let’s think of, start thinking of mobility and transportation a bit broader than just going from A to B. It’s really about how it connects to all the other aspects of and amenities of society.

And a really interesting lens that I can add on to this is if you add autonomy. To that lens of a subscription economy, then you’re also talking about opportunities to maximize efficiency and usability while you’re in transportation. So an example that I can give is imagine 10 years from now, you know, we have a more reliable, autonomous future, right?

So cars can drive themselves. More sustainably in an app, you can request the type of car you need that morning. If it’s just a commuting car, it’s a comfortable one. Maybe it drives itself. So it just shows up at your doorstep. Nobody drives it. Nobody is even sending it. It drives itself, right? But maybe on the weekend.

And this is a paradigm that companies car companies are thinking about. What if you need it. A larger utility vehicle because you’re doing a family trip. You’re a part of this ecosystem, so you request that car, it comes to you. This way of thinking is entirely, entirely different, and this is not just mobility alone.

Think of consumer goods companies. How can they partner with these automotive companies and offer you a more holistic service? There are many examples I can speak of just from projects that I’m working on, but just the main seed idea here is the way we think of transportation, mobility, and how we relate to our environment is really changing.

And technology is a key catalyst of it.

Peter: So, you know what, what I heard there, and of course, uh, this podcast is after all the undiscovered country. So it’s all about future backed thinking. What I think I heard you say. There is the best way to capitalize on the shift towards software and services in mobility is to do it from the future back, which is, which, which is great.

And then you talked about imagining possible future states and then asking. You know, what sort of opportunities do these potential futures hold for us? My question for you is how far into the future do you recommend leaders look when they’re, when they’re thinking about the shift to mobility as a subscription?

And the reason I ask this is I think most of our listeners will be familiar with the idea of future backed thinking and scenario planning in general, but the tricky thing is always Striking a balance between going far enough into the future where, you know, changes is easier to see, but not so far out into the future so that you frustrate your CEO.

And she says, or this is kind of a waste of time. So what, what have you, have you found a sweet spot in the world of mobility, which is, you know, the right, just the right number of years to go on to the future, but not so far as to frustrate people.

Alejandro: Yes, just the right amount. So, you know, the answer is it really depends.

But to answer your question, 2040, 2040 seems to be a very attainable time frame. And the reason why is because many publications and just if you do a scan of what’s currently happening, Many people talk about 2040 as this mass adoption time. So by 2040, it’s projected that most of these technologies will be adopted by most people.

So right now, think of the example of autonomy. Only a few percentage of the population have access to cars that can truly. have self driving capabilities. Same with AI, you know, we’re adopting generative AI more and more as a society, but 2040 seems to be this, this sweet spot where, you know, it’s a large scale enough that we should really plan for it, but it’s also far ahead enough that we can play with some ideas.

You mentioned future backed thinking, and I work a lot with A private sector companies and even with governments in creating these future plans. So what we really are talking about is if you if you go far ahead to 2040 and that’s your vision for where you want to go as a company in doing so, you should also understand that time increments.

So what I mean by that is if 2040 is your plan, you should understand what needs to get done to get there in the next two years in the next five years. What are the implications? And by doing that, the important thing is that you keep up with what’s currently happening in the political climate, in the economic climate, and you revise that plan.

So your 2040 vision, five years down the road, may have changed a little bit because of decision making. That’s part of the core of what I’m really interested in, is how can we formulate these very well informed plans for the future that mean dollars, that mean business models, and then, you know, adapt them as we go, and priorities change, CEOs change.

Peter: So you’re saying, if I’m hearing you right, you’re saying 2040, um, is a good time frame to think about autonomous vehicles, which was the second theme, but is that also true for mobility as a subscription? Is that, is that something that you also don’t see really becoming a huge trend until 2040? Or would you say that might be coming?

Alejandro: I think all of these, including autonomy, are happening sooner. 2040 is just when we have mass adoption, when it’s projected that most people will have large scale access to it, but we’re experiencing this now, as we know.

Peter: Got it. That’s very helpful. So let’s, uh, let’s pivot now to this idea of autonomy, and I’m sure there are plenty of people who are listening to this who are of a certain age like me, and they’re thinking, you know, there’s no way I’m ever going to get into a self driving car.

Um, it just, you know, I don’t trust AI. I can’t imagine doing that. And of course, as I hear myself say this, you know, I have kids who are probably looking at me and saying, dad, you’re a dinosaur. That, that sounds awesome. Um, what do you think, when, when do you think we’ll get to a place where the technology is such that it just seems natural and completely safe for people to want to, to jump into one of these things?

Alejandro: You know, that’s all. That’s a very good question. Just because we have three, three ways of approaching this question. One is from the technology side, you know, potentially we can argue that technology is ready. You know, companies like Waymo, companies like Tesla are collecting so much data. Every day from their vehicles that it’s improving the system.

So from the technology side, the capabilities are pretty much there. Of course, there are a software bugs and improvements like, you know, it’s expected. The technology we can argue is there. On the second hand, we have the government, the regulations. Regulations are usually Couple years behind. In some cases, a decade behind because it relates to the third point, which is people’s perception.

You know, you bring a very crucial point, which is we may have the right technology. We may have a perfect system. But if we if we’re not ready to trust it, that’s worth Nothing, right? So no one will use it unless we truly, truly reliably think that it’s gonna perform in the way that we want to, uh, I quote one of my dear colleagues, who’s an aerospace engineer, and he works actually on the code with many companies on the actual autonomous code that is required by these vehicles.

And he says, you know, we won’t truly be ready until We’re ready to put our four year old daughter in the car to go to school by herself, like with the day, and he says that himself the day I’m ready to put a four year old kid in a car and the car taking them to school. That’s when the perception of autonomy will truly be adopted.

There’s a lot that companies are doing, you know, to improve the technologies and to improve the perception, but this is inherently a human problem. It’s not so much a technology problem. It’s a human problem.

Peter: That’s interesting. So do you think, um, you know, I, my next question was going to be, well, when do you think the technology will be there?

And you kind of hinted at the start of this, that you think the technology is already there, that it’s, you know, we’ve gotten to a place where it’s safe enough to put your kids in there. So I guess the, the question is if the, the shift required isn’t a technological one, it sounds like it’s just a human mind.

Set one. So what do you think will have to happen before enough people just shift their way of thinking and they get comfortable doing this? Is this just, you know, as, as the next generation, as one generation ages out, another one comes in or is there, is there, is it education? Like what needs to happen before more people, more of the time feel comfortable with these things?

Alejandro: Yeah, it is a combination of these. So in terms of the technical side, I mean, not to get very technical, but many people in the audience may have heard of the levels of autonomy. It goes from one through five. We’re currently halfway there. Level three. A Tesla is a level three. But experts talk about that transition from level three to four is probably the most complicated.

So we’re really talking about a car that can truly level for us. It can truly drive itself, you know, Anywhere, you know, you still have a steering wheel. It can drive itself anywhere in the middle of cities For example level five is you may not even have a steering wheel, right? So that’s way down the road.

But in terms of public perception, this is a again Yeah, it’s a human problem and many companies are doing a very good job of advocacy education and it’s really about aligning the technical expectations With the societal expectations. So I cannot mention the name of the company, but I’ve worked with a very important insurance company with whom they’re already thinking about this autonomous future, and they’ve already allocated resources, longterm resources to understand, okay, what does our business model as an insurance company look like if people are not driving the car anymore, who’s liable.

Is the company liable? Is that is the passenger liable? What if it’s a kid, right? So these questions questions are being asked as we speak, and I’ve provided some consulting services to that specific company on. Okay, how should we think of our business model radically different? In a future where the paradigm is just very different, and this is coming, right?

We may not know exactly when, maybe in the next decade, some people talk about, you know, sooner than that, but we know it’s coming, and we know AI is improving as well, so it’s enabling faster processing times of data, but again, this is a human problem, and advocacy, education, campaigns, demonstration of safety, all of these are in line, and government also.

Government push in the right regulations can make a difference.

Peter: That’s really interesting. And what I like in there for our listener, you, you referred to the different levels of, um, automobile autonomy from some zero to five. I think, um, uh, many of our listeners will be familiar with those, but if they’re not, you can imagine it is level zero is basically no Autonomy all the way up to level five, which is, um, humans, basically cargo in the, in the, in the vehicle and you tell the AI where you want it to go.

And what I found interesting there is it sounded like you were suggesting you could almost use those five levels of autonomy as benchmarks that would suggest to anyone who’s interested as you shift from three to four and four to five different opportunities. Uh, open up for you. And, you know, the one you mentioned is, for example, if you’re an insurance, well, it’s as we move from four to five, it’s going to have dramatic implications for the sorts of services you can offer.

And, of course, how you would price for them. I guess that would be true. Or would it be safe to say that that’s a good benchmark that almost anyone can use when trying to figure out what sort of opportunities will be available to them? Uh, presented by autonomous vehicles. Is that about right? Or would you say?

Now I’m putting words in your mouth again, there.

Alejandro: No, I think you’re right on, you know, right, right where the thinking is at, you know, the reason why I agree with what you said is each level of autonomy has different implications, right? So, like I said, we’re currently in level three, which means conditional autonomy.

You can, the car can drive itself under very specific conditions on the highway, as an example. And companies, insurance companies, are already thinking about that. Who’s liable if the car is self driving on a highway and something happens. Technically you still have a human driver who must be on the wheel, you know, at all times and the car think of offerings from different companies, the car still looks.

traditional on the inside. You still have passengers facing frontward. You still have the traditional configuration. However, when we move to a future where level four is possible, meaning the car can truly drive itself under all conditions. But the key aspect is you can regain control if you needed to or if you wanted to.

What that paradigm enables is you can truly Reorganize the space of the moving vehicle very much like you would see, for example, from a business class in an airplane or public transportation, you can have passengers facing each other. And then if you add other technologies such as immersive technologies, a social media.

Entertainment, you can truly have partnerships of companies that offer a very specific experience. For example, what if you’re watching a movie or playing video games with your kids as the car is driving you to your destination? That’s a level four and level five is you don’t even have a steering wheel, right?

There’s not a chance for you to even regain control because you don’t need to. So let’s think of this paradigm very drastically in the sense of all types of companies around the world. Are beginning to think of. Okay, how can we monetize? How can we really understand what this future entails and develop partnerships that enabled them?

So the last thing I’ll say is in a level four and level five car or vehicle. You can truly be doing any type of activity that you want. You can be. As if you were by your desk. So for work purposes for productivity, you could be relaxing. You could be exercising. What if Planet Fitness, as an example, partners with Ford and the as part of the subscription model, they send you a workout vehicle while you go to work and you get to your work already having done your exercise.

This is and I know this is a little bit out of the box thinking, but many of these companies are already thinking about that. The technology is there, the future that we’re talking about is coming, it’s not about the going from A to B paradigm, it’s about the what do you do while you’re going from A to B, because you’re no longer a passenger, you’re no longer a driver in the sense of how it’s always been in the past century.

Peter: That’s great. So let me see if I can, let me see if I can summarize what I think we we’ve talked about so far. If I bring everything together, starting with our conversation about future back thinking, it sounds like you’re saying that 2040 potentially is the year in which, or could be the year in which we have level five.

Automation adopted at scale, and then it if I’m hearing you right when you’re doing future by thinking what you’re advising companies and leaders to do is imagine a future in 2040 where you have level five automation combined with mobility as a service, and then from there, ask yourself what are the potential revenue streams that could be available to you in this connected Autonomous vehicle ecosystem.

Is that, did I get that right or did I, um, take artistic liberties with what I think you’re, you’re saying ?

Alejandro: No, thi this is all very, very interesting and I’m really happy to hear how, you know, you’ve processed all of this, uh, yourself because we’re all reading the news and things that are happening. I know it may sound very speculative and the, you know, for, for people who are economists.

podcast, you know that there will be early adopters. The bell curve of adoption shows that there are always early adopters. That means individuals, but that also means society. So we will see probably some of the largest global cities adopting this level 4, level 5 infrastructure, because we’re not just talking about the cars and the vehicles, we’re talking about a whole city infrastructure, smart cities, that must exist To enable this, you need to have specific sensors, IOT, internet of things, devices.

You need to have the right connectivity, right? For these cars to operate, imagine the quantities of data that autonomous cars must communicate back to the cloud and the larger ecosystem in real time for them to truly be safe, right? So there’s quite a lot happening. So there’s a lot of speculation in the timeframe.

However, some places will be some of the early adopters of this. This is coming and where you mentioned the component of revenue streams, it is very useful for companies, whether they’re a mobility focused or not, to really understand the larger implications of how these technologies are reshaping society because, like we said at the beginning, The paradigm of ownership is radically changing the expectations at the individual level at the society level are really changing.

So we’re talking about a future where we must really, really zoom in and understand, okay, what are the implications? And I, I really think it really affects everybody. You know, the conversations I’m having both in the government industry and academic spheres, we’re all trying to plan ahead. And that’s the thing.

No, no one really knows, you know, radical. Radical change can happen next year. Um, and that’s what we must do. We must really, really, you know, try to have an informed the best informed guess is what I what I’d like to say.

Peter: Well, let me, let me, let me, there was a lot in there, but let me, um, let me highlight one point you made.

I mean, one of, one of the, the interesting things our listeners will probably notice in your bio is that you engage in a number of public and private collaborations, you know, whether it’s Boeing, NASA, Hyundai, or the U. S. Department of Transportation. And so that, you know, that you, you raise an interesting question there.

Um, I read Recently that enhanced mobility, mainly due to electric vehicles, but due to all these things we’re talking about is projected to drive upwards of 1 percent annual growth rate in U. S. Energy consumption, and that’s not 2040. That’s between now. And what’s expected to drive that growth, of course, is, um, data centers, uh, and partly driven by AI are supposed to contribute to a significant amount of that.

And of course, what are these data centers going to be connected to? They’re going to be connected to autonomous vehicles or to, you know, some of the systems that make this future you described possible. So my question for you here is, as you as you cast your gaze across. Both public and private partnerships.

What are the sort of partnerships or collaborations you think we can engage in or should? Engage in to address the specific power management challenge related to all of this.

Alejandro: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you ask a very, very big question. And of course, we have many, many entities and governments and companies trying to answer this.

So the bottom line is the mobility paradigm is an energy paradigm. So EVs are only more environmentally friendly if the right technology. Energy sourcing comes from sustainable renewable resources. I think we see lots of initiatives in terms of the local sourcing of energy. So an example is I’m working on a project with the Department of Transportation here in Ohio, where we’re proposing this idea of mobility and community hubs.

So mobility hubs are centers where you can go in and take the right mode of transportation. You can take an autonomous car, a shared car and an EV or you can take a train, etcetera. However, Those are the places also where vehicles charge. So the idea of locally sourced energy, renewable energy is really important.

So at the government level, you should think of the larger grid, but at the company level, you should think of, okay, where will these charging stations be? And what is the model that sustains that? Is it a subscription model? Going back to the idea of subscription? Is it a pay to use service? Kind of how a gas station works today?

Okay. But this is really significant in terms of partnerships, and I think you were really hinting on where I think things are going. And for this future to happen, it requires multi level partnerships across governments, across companies, and very importantly, across communities, you know, communities should really They own and empower themselves of their local hub, for example.

So for these mobility futures to exist, you have to have local access in your city, in your suburb, in your rural community if these are to happen. So community ownership is important, but also partnerships across the private and public sectors. Slowly, we see more and more interest, especially from the larger organizations.

And that’s something I can speak of more if it’s a relevant. But with the Department of Transportation, this idea of large scale community mobility hubs can be part of the answer of the energy paradigm within mobility.

Peter: That’s that’s really interesting. I think, 1 last 1 last question on this. This topic are related to this topic.

I think the mobility, you know, we’re talking about partnerships being important, um, right at a period in history where the mobility industry generally is facing a lot of uncertainty. Regarding trade and tariff policies, um, you know, we don’t know what that’s going to look like, uh, but we do know that, uh, trade and tariff policies are coming that could potentially, uh, impact what sort of collaborations and partnerships are possible now, of course, particularly concerning China, right?

We know that the US, um, is proposed, uh, tariffs on vehicles coming from China and is considering restricting the use of Chinese software and hardware, and I think, um, you know, as recently as just a few weeks ago, Europe has proposed additional tariffs on an EV technology from China. This is just one glimpse of that.

How, from the future back, if at all, would you recommend people in the mobility space? Think about, uh, trade and tariff policies in the days ahead, or would you say it’s just you have to wait and see?

Alejandro: Yeah, that’s a really, really fascinating question that I think about, and it’s both. It’s both. You know, this is very difficult because, as we’ve seen, governments are employing protectionist policies.

Of course you want to protect your domestic industry. I think the answer is a little bit of both. Future backed thinking. Meaning working with governments and companies to understand what is the future that you truly are envisioning and let’s, let’s go back to 2040 as a, as a stage. So if you come up with a plan for 2040 of the ideal conditions that U.

S. Corporation or you as a government want to be in terms of your domestic mobility and energy and other industries. That plan has implications in terms of technology in terms of a business and resources allocation. So let’s let’s say you have that 2040 plan and future back thinking, how can you scale that plan down to very specific increments?

One year, two years, five years, the interesting thing about future back thinking, which also. To contrast with the decisions that are being made is it’s very important to have that future plan because you should be able to revise it as you go. So, for example, if you’re 2040 plan says that in the next two years, you must make these very specific decisions.

Okay. What if the news just announced that, uh, you know, the tariffs that the U. S. is imposing on Chinese EVs as an example? Well, you must revise your future plan because that changes some of the implications, the business and technology implications. What if we get different conditions or different sourcing for chips?

I mean, we know with Taiwan, the dependency Chips not only across automotive and mobility, but across all the industries, there’s a heavy, heavy reliance on that. So the answer is a little bit of both. Of course, having a future plan is very important because that that leads the way of the vision of where you as an organization and you as a as a government want to go, but also keeping an eye on what’s Happening on the daily and revising that plan so you could have potentially multiple solutions lined up in the next 10 years that some may be required and some may not.

It just depends on how, how the future, you know, keeps evolving, but truly staying, you know, to your sticking to your plan.

Peter: That’s, uh, that’s a perfect note to end on. And it’s actually really encouraging that we have someone like you who is very human centered. And committed to building a better future for all of us to know that you’re out there doing doing this important work.

So thank you very much for your time. I look forward to seeing you hopefully soon at the Future Mobility Design Lab in Cincinnati. And until then, keep on innovating.

Alejandro: Thank you, Peter. Always a pleasure and keep doing what you do as well. Always looked up to you that way in BTS.